Protestants in Northern Ireland (Ulster) celebrated the one hundredth year anniversary of the Ulster Covenant this weekend with parades in Belfast and a festival at Stormont (the capital). A large portion of Ulster’s population is Ulster-Scots, people descended from Scottish settlers. In North America the Ulster-Scots are often called Scots-Irish. They are most heavily concentrated in Appalachia and the Upper South but have also spread out and across much of the rest of the South as well as other areas of the United States.
In the picture below, some Orangemen march with the Confederate flag of Dixie. The Bonnie Blue flag can also be seen to the left.
Click here to watch a related video I recorded and put together in 2008 in Northern Ireland.
Michael I have a hard time with this as those “Orangemen” were “planted” in Ireland to bring the Irish under control of the British government. Many people lost their lives, their land, and all their resources when the “planters” were brought in by the Government. Even though many of them left and emigrated to the united States, many more did not and, created a society of apartheid against the native Irish. The Partition created a broken country, and all the violence that comes from having your homeland usurped by outsiders who do not want to share your culture, but to destroy it. Sound familiar??
SAH, I have a different perspective. I’ve been to Ulster and met a lot of people there. Today, the government and society of NI is much like our own in that it opposes the Ulsterfolk. The UK lends them almost no support. They are a dwindling percentage of the population (since the Catholics have bigger families). And in their local parliament the IRA-supported Sinn Fein has a large presence.
If you go there the Ulsterfolk have a deep connection to the Southern people that they are aware of. You’ll hear country music in their pubs. You’ll see some Confederate flags. They promote their ties to South and US as a whole. Meanwhile, the Irish Catholics tend to identify with the so-called ‘civil rights’ movement of the 1960s and the Black activists in the US. They sing ‘We Shall Overcome’ in their marches and try to paint themselves today as a down-trodden, oppressed minority – which they are not. There is nothing even close to Apartheid there. I’ve been there. If anything, the Irish Catholics are pandered to. They have 2/3 of the island as an independent republic and are nearly half of the population in NI as well. Most of the west and south of NI is now Catholic-dominated (this is a big change). The Protestants in those areas have left or dwindled in numbers. It used to be that 10% or more of the population in even the Republic was Protestant. No more.
There is on the part of many Irish Catholics a deep hatred of the Ulster-Scots, who have been in Ulster just as long as my family has been in South Carolina. If the UK gives NI to Dublin the Ulster-Scots culture will probably be lost.
I don’t like to see sectarian division between European peoples. However, I am sympathetic to the plight of the Ulsterfolk. They should be able to preserve their culture in their area. They now have a very small part of the island and are trying to keep alive their dialect and identity. I wish them the best in this. And I wish the Irish Catholics the best in their part of the island. There is no reason the two ought to be able to preserve themselves in their own respective regions.
I agree with Michael on this one. As he pointed out, the Ulsterfolk have been in Ireland as long as the oldest Southron families have been in the eastern “colonies” like South Carolina. If we deny their claim to Ulster, we equally deny our claim to Dixie. Because we are also transplants, replacing the older Amer-Indian population. Besides, barely a soul in Ireland today is pure Irish anywho. The Norse invaded and settled the coasts during the Viking Age, and during the early to high middle ages the Anglo-Normans settled the island as well. Most Irishers today, if they are “pureblood” are really hybrid Irish-Nordic-Anglo-Normans. And given that the Ulsterfolk are Scots in their heritage, and Scots are, ultimately, Irish in their heritage (we only left Ireland about 1500 years ago) and given that the Ulster region is where most of the clans that became the Scots originated, I would hardly call the Ulsterfolk “planted.” More like returned to their roots.
Those are excellent points, VS.
I don’t want to sound anti-Irish because I am not. I have Irish friends. I have spent time in the Republic and enjoyed myself (though Dublin is now flooded with Africans and other Third World immigrants, sadly). I think both people and cultures should be preserved and be able to live in peace on the island, especially as VS notes, they are very closely related. There was a shop (which had a Confederate flag in its window) in Belfast which I remember called ‘One Island, Two Nations.’ I think that’s a good slogan.
Wrong,wrong,the people carrying the flag represent and are loyal to the british crown,an occupying force in my country.You threw british rule out of your country,we are still trying. With all due respect,learn Irish history before making these comments.I would not even attempt to give an american a lecture on american history,or offer an opinion on it,I may ask questions to learn,but statements above,are from a passing knowledge,and/or from a british media standpoint,.And just to be clear,I am an Irishman,living in Ireland,I do not recognise northern ireland as a separate country,rather ,I see it as the british occupied six counties of Ireland,.Also any Irish attempt at freedom was always reffered to as an Irish Rebellion and the participants as Irish Rebels hence my affinity with the “Stars,n,Bars
What the Crown did in Ulster is no different than what the Crown did in America by planting English and other folks in the colonies and kickin’ around the red man.
Doesn’t make that right either but it happened.
Just sayin’…….
There is also the matter that the (legitimate) monarchy of England and Scotland is *also* the legitimate monarchy of Ireland. I can respect a principled opposition to the usurping line, but Ireland has no claim to be “free” from the crown, just to be free from the wrong monarch and restored to the rightful one.
As someone has pointed out the plantation (or homecoming)of Ulster happened at about the same time as the plantation of Virginia. De Valera once said that a solution would be to send all the Protestants back to Scotland,England and Wales. Gray replied that then perhaps we should send all the New Englanders and others back from America to Britain.
Ulster has a history of ancient struggle against those who sought to rule them. Ulster has been around before Christ walked on this earth. We will still defend Ulster by ”whatever means are found necessary”… to use the words of the Covenant.
@VS,are you crazy,” Ireland has no claim to be free” “the british queen is the legitmate monarch of Ireland”!!,and who in your opinion is the rightful monarch ???,.These have to be some of the most absurd statements about Ireland that I have EVER heard.It is patently obvious
you know nothing of Irish history
Mr. UlsterPatriot,
I’m sure many, if not most, of the folks with Southern roots here in the America have some Scotch/English, Scotch/Irish, Ulster ancestry.
Please educate me, and tell me more about the “Covenant”. I’m just curious because, honestly, I’m interested and don’t know what that means…..
Thanks!
Mistake.
It should read “here in America” not “here in the America”.
(Big sigh).
O well……
TNSDG, check out this link for more info on the subject:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster_Covenant
Well New Silence Dogood the Ulster Covenant was signed by near half a million people on the 28th of September 1912. It was its Centenary on Friday past.
It was a vow taken by all those people to resist ”by all means found necessary’ the attempt to push Ulster into an all-Ireland. The Ulster Volunteer Force was formed to back up what they had vowed. They were prepared to take on the British Army if need be. With this in mind 25,000 guns and three million rounds of ammo was landed at Larne,Donaghadee,and Bangor.
However,WW1 intervened and the UVF was to become the 36th Ulster Division in the British Army. They went off to fight at the Somme and in a charge (not unlike Picketts) reached the German’s third line of defence,but with no support on either side of them they had to retreat as they were coming under fire from either side and front. They suffered 5,000 casualties of whom 3,000 were killed.
That is a rough outline of the signing of the Ulster Covenant and subsquent events.
The Ulster Covenant was based on the Scottish Covenant and it was said that some signed it in their own blood.
Michael and UlsterPatriot,
Great information…..
Thank you gentlemen!
Here is a link to the video which was on BBC on Thursday. Some minor points I might query but on the whole its not a bad assesment of how things were in those stirring days.
UlsterPatriot.
Wow.
I just started watching the BBC documentary on the Ulster Covenant.
What I’ve seen so far is fabulous.
Many thanks!!!
UlsterPatriot,
Third sentence, “I” should read “I’ve”.
(Laughter)
I’m just quirky that way….
Again, great stuff and many thanks….
@Ulster patriot,I see by your statement,where your bias is,the covenant was signed by a minority of the ulster populace to preserve their power,and legitimising the uvf,as military heroes,please !!!http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=uvf&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&sqi=2&ved=0CB0QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FUlster_Volunteer_Force&ei=XWVrUM3xLsGKhQfdp4CwAw&usg=AFQjCNGXBW73BX3rEP9736Uf03Qz9C1Plg
Have you ever been to Ireland,have ever studied Irish history,beyond second/third hand folklore,There is no scots/irish,you are either Scots or Irish,If in doubt ask a scotsman or an irishman,.And ulster-scots is a misnomer,same as african-american,If you are born in America,you are an American etc,etc,. So please quit making statments about things you patently know nothing about
Ulster Patriot,
Last question of the day (I don’t want to be a bother):
I do a lot of geneology (sp?) research and I have folks on both sides of my family that came from the Ulster Plantation (I think they migrated here sometime in the early 1700′s). Anyway, I’ve looked for good books on the Ulster Plantation or just on Ulster folks in general but I haven’t found any that are very good.
Do you have any reading you would recommend?
Again, thanks, and I won’t “wear out my welcome” with any more questions!
@hellfire1961,
First of all, if you would kindly refrain from misquoting me, that would be much appreciated. I never said the so-called “British Queen” was the legitimate monarch of Ireland. There’s a reason I brought up the word “legitimate” in the first place. I’m also afraid I know far more about Irish history than you give me credit for. For example, I know that during the so-called “Glorious Revolution” the Irish were among the most loyal subjects to the true king, James II (VII). After the defeat of Bonnie Dundee’s army in 1689, most of the British Isles abandoned the cause of the king and kowtowed to the Williamite Parliament. But Ireland rose up in the name of the Stuart monarch and fought for three more years in his defense.
Irish patriotism does not require hatred of English and Scots, nor does it require a republic. This is also why I put the word “free” in quotes. If by “free” what is meant is total disconnect from the British Monarchy, then I stand by the statement that Ireland has no claim to be free. It is one of the three sovereign kingdoms of the true Great Britain. However, if by “free” what is meant is total disconnect from the usurping, Hanoverian line, so as to make better preparations for the return of the true king, then yes, Ireland has every claim to be free.
I may not qualify as an “expert” in Irish history, per se, but I have a great deal of knowledge about Irish history. Certainly more than enough to warrant more credit than you give me. If you disagree with my interpretation of Irish history, that is your right. But it is one thing to admit that I know my Irish history and state your disagreement with how I interpret it. It is another thing entirely to accuse me of having no such knowledge in the first place. As a man of Scottish, Scots-Irish, Irish, English, and Dutch heritage, I have quite the vested interest in the history of the British Isles, and have heritage from just about every side of almost every conflict in their history. Gives me the ability to look at both sides of the equation.
@ VS,apologies for the misquote.
Ireland “supported” james with the encouragement of the church in rome because james was catholic,whereas king billy,(hero of the orange-men)was protestant,not out of loyalty to the stuart monarchy.
“Irish patriotism does not require hatred of English and Scots” correct,in fact there is a strong celtic kinship between the Irish and the Scots,and a mutual dis-like of the english,much the same way as Southerners dis-like of Yankee,s
The question of legitimite monarchy does not apply,whether it be stuart,hannoverian,saxe-coburg,windsor,unless you want count the unlikely return of the O,Connor (Ruaidrí Ua Conchobair,last high king)line of high kings,so a republic it is.
Finally I would not like this to decend into a personal slanging match,but while I respect that you “have a great deal of knowledge about Irish history” much the same way as I have a great deal of knowledge about American history,I would not lecture you on your country,s history.And as aside,neither Irish or Scots like or appreciate being called british,much the same way as Canadians dont like being called American
Hellfire,
Apology accepted.
Regarding Jacobite support, it really is a matter of interpretation, and probably varied from person to person. Even Bonnie Dundee’s motives are uncertain (Jacobites claim he is an heroic example of legitimist loyalty whereas Williamite sympathizers claim he was “loyal” only because under William he would have been punished for his “crimes.” The truth is probably somewhere in between.), so it is likely that a mixture of reasons went in to Irish support for King James.
I’ve heard that argument about the O’Connors, and it is not a very strong one. But with respect to your personal desires, and to the topic at hand, I shalln’t descend into the pro-Stuart argument here.
It was not my desire to lecture you on Irish history in my former post. Merely to establish my credentials and demonstrate that I truly know my Irish history, rather than simply retort with, “Well, I know more Irish history than you think!” and leave it at that (because any idiot can protest he knows something. Someone who really does know something ought to demonstrate a portion of that knowledge).
And lastly, I know that Irish and Scots don’t appreciate being called British. I am Irish and Scots. I take my blood very seriously. And I did refrain from referring to anything or anyone specifically Irish, Scots, Welsh, Manx, English, Cornish, etc. as British. However, the entire region is known as the “British Isles” and, when used properly, the term “British” merely implies something that pertains to all the peoples of that region. And so, when speaking of my knowledge of, and heritage in, these isles and their history, it was simpler and quicker to say, “British Isles.” It is also simpler, when referring to Stuart claims, to say, “British Monarchy” than to spell out in long detail, “The Three Separate, Sovereign, and Equal Kingdoms of England, Scotland and Ireland, as Rightfully Ruled in the Personal Union of the Stuart Monarch.” But believe me, I have no intent on referring to anything or anyone Irish as “British.”
@VS,can I assume you know Irish history as part of an overall history of the british isles,rather than a specific Irish history,because in my studies of Irish history,Bonnie Dundee is some-one I had never heard of,and the Glorious Rebellion is barely given a name check as such,what is remembered is the battle of the Boyne as the final defeat of james in 1690 and the picture above is of Orangemen still commemorating/celebrating king billys victory and pledging their loyalty to his heirs/sucessors
NSD,There are quite a few books out there regarding the Ulster-Scots and the Ulster people in general. Billy Kennedy has written the ‘Scots-Irish in the Hills of Tennessee’ ‘The Scots-Irish in the Carolinas’ ‘The Scots-Irish in the Shenandoah Valley’ ‘Heroes of the Scots-Irish in America’ etc etc. ‘The People With No Name’ is another by a fella called Griffith. ‘Born Fighting’by James Webb is another.
My two favourities are ‘Ulster Sails West’ and ‘God’s Frontiersmen’. The latter is hard to get now but if asked to choose I would say its the best of the lot. A magazine size book with plenty of pictures as well as reading.
NSD. Re the video. Yes it was a fairly balanced portrayal of the events of that time. Carson himself said his argument was with the British….
Memorable Words
The large drill hall at Willowfield,Belfast,was opened on the 16th of May,1913. Present at that ceremony was Edward Carson,who,addressing the volunteers and friends uttered these memorable words:
”Remember,you have no quarrel with individuals. We welcome,aye, and we love,every individual Irishman,even though opposed to us. Our quarrel is with the Government. If they wish to test the legality of anything we are doing or have done,do not let them take humble men. I am responsible for everything. They know where to find me,for I have never ask any man to do what I am not myself ready to do.”
Again, many thanks UlsterPatriot.
Hellfire,
The answer to that is “yes and no.” I know Irish history as a separate subject, especially when it comes to Conn of the Hundred Battles and more ancient Irish history. But once Ireland becomes a part of the Three Kingdoms, I will admit that my scope of Irish history does become more of an incorporation into the whole, and that from a Jacobite perspective. Bonnie Dundee (also known to his enemies as “Bloody Clavers”) is formally known as John Graham of Claverhouse, Viscount Dundee. He was the most vocal and active supporter of James at the start of the Williamite War until his untimely death at the end of the Battle of Killiecrankie. He was Scottish, which is why you may not be as familiar with him.
Regarding the Boyne, that may have been when the tide turned (before that, things were actually looking up for King James), but the war lasted two more years. Regarding the Ulster-Scots, I admit I have mixed feelings. Some of my Scots ancestry comes from their stock, which does give me an attachment to them. But as previously stated, my Jacobite sympathies would tend to argue with their claims, especially their loyalty to the Hanovers. In the end, though, for me it all comes down to this: Irish, Ulter-Scot, Scot, Welsh, English, Manx, Cornish – all are rightfully under the heirs to the Stuart monarchy, and *that* is what it will take to stop the hatred and the fighting: when there comes the restoration the Three Kingdoms: separate, equal, and sovereign; united solely by their common, legitimate monarch.
Your welcome New Silence Dogood,and I hope you are able to pick up some of the books I mentioned. Billy Kennedy has been to America quite a few times mostly in the Southern States (think he was only once up north)promoting his books and giving talks about the Scots-Irish/Ulster-Scots people.
@ VS
Thank you,for our chat,it has been interesting,you Sir have a very unique view,one I have not come across be before,I cant say I would share your views but they a valid none the less.From what you have written,your knowledge of Irish history seems to be of ancient history,mixed with folklore/legend and in the context of a an overall britsh history,.Could I please,with all due respect,reccomend this book for your consideration, Modern Ireland 1600-1972 by RF Foster
Best Regards,
K
Indeed, I have enjoyed it as well, Hellfire. And there are more Jacobites out there. The cause has been in decline for a century, which is probably why you haven’t encountered its ideology before. But it is still out there. I will definitely have to look into that book. Thank you for the recommendation!
Regards,
VS
Saw this on the Thompson site and thought it might be of interest. I think I have read somewhere about the Rev Martin, and I believe there were 5 ships came from Belfast to Charleston in the 1700s
My wife and I made two trips and spent four weeks in Northern Ireland and Southern Scotland in 2011. Being from southern USA I just wanted to put my feet on the land of my heritage. Great trips, highlighted by great people who made me feel at home. We may be miles apart in distance but we still share many common values passed by previous generations. Thanks for keeping our history alive and well in this digital age.
I’m from Georgia. My ancestor John Agnew sailed from Larne to South Carolina in 1772 with Rev. Martin’s group.
Clinton Agnew
SAH. There are two sides to a story usually, and I could go back to the Cruthin and the coming of the Celts. The ‘plantation’ is also known as ‘The Homecoming’. However,suffice to say that the Ulster-Scots suffered from both the English and the Irish. As Webb says they were ‘Born Fighting’and have always been ‘the meat in the sandwich’
Yes indeed, many people did loss their lives including those who died in the massacres of 1641 and the Siege of 1688 and in 1798. They did not create a society of apartheid.
You say partition created a broken country. The yankees might say the same about the South if the South had won the war. And it could be pointed out that it was secession which caused partition…not the other way about.
As mentioned the Celts could be seen as the usurpers if one goes back far enough,and I believe that there are those who wish to destroy the culture of Ulster and absorb us into an Irish culture.