There is an interesting discussion or debate taking place between Hunter Wallace (of Occidental Dissent) and Greg Johnson (of Counter Currents) over Southern nationalism (SN) versus White nationalism (WN). You can follow the discussion on the following links: here, here and here. I use term ‘White nationalism’ in the title and this article because that is how both its supporters and opponents regularly refer to it. However, (and if the name of this website weren’t enough of a give away, this will expose which side of the debate I favour) races are not nations. No major race on Earth is united by language, culture and religion, for example. All human races are multi-national. This is not to diminish the importance of biology (and contrary to what your sociology professor says, race is biology, not just a social construct) but rather to put it in its proper place. As a friend of mine commented recently, race is just one aspect of a nation – I don’t know why that’s so difficult for WN’s to grasp.
Johnson is undoubtedly an intelligent man but his mentality is definitely West Coast, not Southern. I’ve enjoyed some of his podcasts (not sure why he quit doing them) but essentially I think Wallace is right – WN proposes a proposition nation. Races are not nations. And White people are never all going to unite and create a country based on the fact they are all White some day. As Wallace asks, where would such a country be located? What language would the people speak? What would be the religion there? What would be its cultural norms? These sort of questions reveals the propositional nature of the idea – and that is essentially what it is, an idea, whereas we are a people. Even if we are soon to become a minority in our land, we’ll still be a people, the same way the Kurds are a people in Turkey and Iraq and Syria. The fact that they are not a majority in those countries doesn’t mean they are not a nation. They just don’t have an independent state of their own… yet.
Southern nationality is not a proposition
I don’t know what I’m going to do. I can see the benefits of living in an all white country around foreign whites but it just wouldn’t be like home for me. I get homesick pretty easy just visiting a neighboring Southern state so I know I wouldn’t last long in a totally alien environment. Then again, the South is becoming more and more alien itself. So yea, if things keep heading the way they are now then I might aswell be around white foreigners in a foreign land.
I take my bloodline more seriously than most folks who call themselves Southern Nationalists it seems. Although I’m rather young (late 20′s) I was raised around the old school Southern mindset. If you piss on your family name by mixing your blood with a racial alien then you are shunned by the family, wether they claim to be a proud Southerner or not. I had a female cousin that went out and did just that. We don’t even talk to her or let her visit anymore. She has pretty much been rejected and sent out to live amongst another tribe. Although we can’t really legally segregate, social shunning goes a long way to keep the trash out of reach.
Anyway, I will have to make my decision in the future about staying in the South or moving to a WN. It all depends on how things work out. I’ve seen alot of people on this very site who say that they don’t care about race aslong as the inhabitants speak with a Southern accent and wave a Confederate flag. I’m a proud white Southerner, but if I have to choose between a mongrelized South and a foreign WN, then I would choose the WN.
Just my honest feelings. I’m not gonna sugarcoat how I feel just to fit in to the ‘we’re all Southern, even the black thug down the street’ crowd. I’ve never held the opionion that all non-whites are bad people but at the end of the day I’m only interested in being around my white Southern kinsmen.
Take it as you wish,
WS
WhiteSouthron, You seem to be making some assumptions about Southern nationalists that I don’t think are correct. If you had been at the recent LS national conference and hung out with SN activists…. or even if you read the articles I write here…. I don’t understand your concerns. Nor is there any foreign WN republic to move to. If you read HW’s article, he makes the case for Dixie. I don’t think a more explicit case could be made.
In my personal opinon is that southeners are of all types,races,for example look at the confederate army there where white(majority)black,hispanic,and native american(stan watie).if your southern,act southern,have southern ideals,beliefs than your southern.
i know my typeing and spelling sux sry……..long live dixie
TJ, I for one am not interested in Southern independence if it means we will re-create the universalist experiment of the USA.
yes i believe you are right….after thinking about it.it would make things difficult.multiculturism i mean.
I would agree with that, Michael. But I also feel that it does not have to be one extreme or the other. The problem with the USA’s universalism is that they believe anyone from anywhere can just cross an imaginary border, pledge allegiance to a piece of cloth, and suddenly become “American.” I certainly reject that, and do not wish to see a free Dixie that says, “Anyone and anyone who wants to be Southern just has to cross our border and pledge his loyalty to the Stars and Bars!”
At the same time, TJ here makes a good point, that there were those of non-white descent who also helped make our Confederacy great (granted, their numbers weren’t as large as the PC-Confederates like to pretend, but we cannot discount the reality of these people) and I think that is is possible to acknowledge that they, too, are Southern. Stand Watie, as mentioned before, is a prime example of a non-White who wore the Grey during the WSI, and H.K. Edgerton is a prime example in my eyes of a modern day non-white Southerner.
The South of the 1850s and 1860s reminds me in many ways of Lakedaimon, that great country of the Spartans. Like the South, Lakedaimon was a martial country, and one with multiple peoples living under its banner and calling it home, though it had been built by only one.
The Spartans themselves had built the country, it was their nation, and therefore as Spartiate Peers they held the position of highest honour and power, and only they could participate in government and hold the titles of “Equal” and “Citizen.” But they were not the only Lakedaimonians.
Those called “Gentleman Rankers” and “Perioikoi” made up the middle strata of Lakedaimonian society. They were not Spartans, and they were not Citizens or Equals, but they were still freemen, and still Lakedaimonians, and when war came, they fought with pride and valour for their country.
And at the bottom of the rung were the Messenian Helots, slaves. And though not Spartan, they still were Lakedaimonian. Though they chafed under the yoke of slavery, and often sought freedom, still they knew their country was their country, and when Lakedaimon was threatened, they, too, fought to defend her.
Indeed, Patrick Cleburne likened the South’s black slaves to the Helots, and said that if we armed them as the Spartans did and offered them freedom, they would fight. And though very few blacks did end up bearing arms for Dixie, many served in other ways. For though they desired freedom, they knew that the South was their country, and they would defend her against the invader in whatever way they could.
And while it is true that blacks, hispanics, and Amerindians are not white Southrons, I do not think this means that all of them are by definition excluded. But just as we would say that not all white men are or can be Southron, neither are all blacks, hispanics, or Amerindians Southerners, nor can they all become such.
It is my opinion that a man such as H.K. Edgerton is indeed a Southern man, and has a place in a free Southern country. And I will say again, I am not a universalist, nor a multiculturalist. I agree that we ought to be narrow in our definition of who is and can be a Southron. I just want to make sure we aren’t too narrow. I hope I am making sense. If not, I shall try to clarify where it is I stand.
i couldnt agree more….or said any better
VS, I do think there can be a positive solution to this problem that will benefit White Southerners and also those non-White groups which have historical ties to the South and identify with the culture of Dixie. The Confederacy’s relationship with the 5 Indian nations of Oklahoma sets a good example in this regard, I believe. No one pretended that Stand Watie, for example, was the same as Jefferson Davis just because they were both born in the South. They were from different peoples with their own unique identity and nationhood. However, Waitie’s support was welcomed and he was treated with respect – he was made a general in the CSA Army, for example. He was also the head of state of his people and that is where his first loyalty remained. I think a similar relationship with other racial/cultural groups who are aligned with us could be worked out. We see for example, in South Africa, that the Afrikaners have their own identity and are truly a nation of people. At the same time, they have a closer relationship with the Afrikaans-speaking coloureds (mixed-race people) than they do with the Zulus and other ethnic/cultural groups that are not related to them ethnically or culturally. This could be a model for us and one that if we look to the Old South and the various cultures of the Golden Circle, has a foundation in our history that we can build upon in the future.
That sounds like about what I was thinking, I just didn’t have the right words for it. I never intended to imply that Stand Watie was the same as Jefferson Davis. I think what you are getting as is a good solution. It does not pretend we are all the same the way that universalism does. What it does do is find a way for the different groups that call this land “home” and who wish to protect and preserve it to work together.
White Southron,
That’s why, in a few years, I’m personally “seceding” from where I live now to a much more rural, “white”, conservative area. It may not be perfect, but it’ll beat where I live now all to heck…..
I hear exactly what you’re saying. Again, until someone comes up with a “reasonable” alternative, I’m leaving “for the hills”, so to speak…..
so then can someone tell me the diffrene between southern nationalist and white nationalist(micheal).im not taking the o.c from above cause i am a proud member of the scv and they are against the scv.they have a article against the scv called real sons of confederate veterans. thanks to all
again i mean no disrespect to anyone…..long live dixie
t.j.,
No disrespect on my end either.
To each his own…
I’m still headin’ for “higher ground”, so to speak, cause’ the flood waters of muticulturalism keep a comin’…..