Today we welcomed Mark Vogl back to the SNN podcast. Mr Vogl has extensive experience in politics and the Southern heritage movement in the Lone Star State. He is a graduate of The Citadel, former US military officer and lives on his ranch, Rebel Mountain, in eastern Texas. He is also a columnist at NolanChart.com and keeps the site Confederate War College. He recently wrote a letter which was published on the Southern Heritage News and Views Facebook page which calls on the Sons of Confederate Veterans to ‘condemn slavery as a sin it was’ and focus on the ‘more positive aspect’ of the South ‘which could help you recruit.’ A lengthy and critical response to this letter was published on SNN. In this interview Mr Vogl is given the chance to address SNN’s criticisms and make his views clear.
Click here for the audio (duration: 36:26)
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Vogl really needs to visit this page and give it a good read:
http://pilgrimagetomonsalvat.blogspot.com/2010/08/rainbow-confederacy-not.html
“We don’t know what color Jesus was”? Are you serious, Mr. Vogl? Wow.
He keeps focusing on the relationship of Southern Whites and Blacks from many decades and over a hundred years ago. What does that have to do with today? 95% of Blacks have no interest in preserving or respecting Southern culture, and they have shown little desire to assimilate into Western civilization. He needs to understand that it is a total waste of time pandering to non-Whites in an appeal to “unite as Southerners”. It isn’t going to happen, and Southern Nationalism will never get anywhere as long as trying to appeal to non-Whites is a major focus. It doesn’t mean we have to hate non-Whites, but we ought to be honest and stop pretending that we can accomplish our goals with their help. Michael did a great job making this point toward the end of the podcast, but it’s well worth repeating.
Mr. Vogl…good luck trying to grow enhance Southern identity and culture by becoming more politically correct and groveling to anti-Whites. I’m sure it will work out well….after all, it has just been so effective up to this point, so no reason not to keep up such a winning strategy. Just don’t expect any of us real Southern patriots to join with you in that endeavor. Your strategy leads to a Third World South.
I don’t believe it’s necessary to conjure up Christianity as the basis for being against owning another free born human being. I do believe slavery is wrong and I always will. I also believe that there is a natural “inequality” among the various races on the planet. If that were not the case then we would find the same growth of culture and civilization worldwide down through history. We do not.
We do find however that white europeans developed as much as they were able within the narrow confines of various forms of economic slavery leveraged against them, beautiful cities, wonderful mechanical and scientific marvels creating ease of life, and art, literature, and music to soothe the soul and fire the imagination to greater heights of culture. These things are not found within other races’ cultures to the degree they are found within white european cultures. Why is this the case? I do not know. But I do know that lipstick on a pig does not change the pig, it only looks stupid.
The truth is that other races on the whole (not all members) lack the abilities to create these types of societies in which all members can flourish and wherein all members enjoy the same opportunity of the benefit of their labor. Additionally they appear to lack the ability to join together for the greater good, another hallmark of the “clans” of white europeans. These elements to me are part and parcel of the basis of southern civilization. As was often said during the mid-1970′s and the great influx of minorities to the US, if they want to come here, fine, but they must learn our language, our culture, and our traditions and participate fully vested in those. I have not yet found any that did just that, and, it appears to me also from much time spent in the south that the Black’s have not done so either. So why should an appeal be made to people to support a civilization and culture which they clearly do not, nor have not ever supported? I just don’t get it.
It seems to me that the “slavery” issue should be left out of the Southern Nationalist movement all together. As it was not the basis for the “war of northern aggression” it should not now be a basis for uniting of southerners. If Blacks want to be part of the Southern Nationalist movement then they need to adopt the custom and culture wholeheartedly, which in itself would negate the slavery issue (which to my experience always brings in the African culture agenda, yet somehow always excludes the fact that various African tribes sold each other into slavery to one another and other races).
At one time I was a “bible scholar” and have the university degrees to prove it. Today I am much more aligned with Thomas Jefferson who held himself to be a Deist. I believe every type of slavery whether physical in chains or financial is wrong and not what The Creator intended for creation. To address the issue of Southern Nationalism from the viewpoint of apologizing for slavery long since gone, is in my opinion doing nothing more than loading another cannon round for Lincoln and the Banksters who funded him and the immoral war.
SouthernAtHeart, that is close to my opinion. I’m certainly not advocating slavery and I don’t know any Southern nationalist who does. At the same time I’m not going to apologise for an institution that ended more than a hundred years before I was born. And I’m not going to say that an institution defended by my ancestors, by the church and by most Western thinkers for thousands of years is a ‘sin.’ I just don’t see how it should be an issue. No one is asking the Romans today to apologise for slavery that took place in the Roman Empire. No one is asking the Yankees to apologise for the slavery that took place prior to their emancipation. No one is asking any other society in the world, to my knowledge, to apologise for the supposed ‘sin’ of slavery – except us. Unlike Mr Vogl, I don’t see this is an issue holding back the Southern movement. Rather, I see political-correctness and cowardice as holding us back. I also see a lack of imagination on the part of some influential people in the Southern movement. Thankfully, there are very positive trends going on in the movement as well and in m opinion the defeatists and PC Confederates are being left behind.
“At one time I was a ‘bible scholar’ and have the university degrees to prove it.”
I doubt it. Not that you don’t have “university degrees”, but that you were or are any kind of “Bible scholar.”
And good luck on making any successful argument from a Jeffersonian-style deism that slavery is objectively wrong.
@Snaggle-Tooth Jones… I beg your pardon! Just because I do not espouse your type of spiritual belief does not mean that I am not, nor were ever a “Bible Scholar.” Your rude comments do not deserve any further reply from me. Have a nice day.
Speaking about the comments in the audio about the SCV, I think there is differences in different states. A few years ago we really had a fight with the grannies, and for the most part I think we did pretty well in that fight, however, I understand that the Army of Tran-Mississippi, which includes many of the western states is still largely under control by the Granny faction. I’m pretty happen overall with the national leadership, and the leadership of my Army (Army of Tennessee), division (Tennessee), brigade, and camp.
However, I think it’s important to realize that the SCV is a very decentralized organization by its very nature, which means in many cases the national organization, and even the armies and divisions can not make a lot of decisions. The local camps are ultimately responsible for their own affairs, which means some camps are huge and active, and some camps are small and inactive.
Just to echo Michael a bit here…we don’t desire a return to African servitude. That’s not what this is about, and anyone who takes on the issue from this angle misses the point. What we’re saying is that Southern Whites need to stop wasting our time apologizing for slavery and talking about how horrible it was, because all that does is lend credibility to our anti-Southern foes. What’s more, there is no chance of winning the approval of our political and philosophical enemies unless we fully convert to their side. Indeed, unless you are prepared to completely renounce your traditional values and join the ranks of leftists, you will be condemned as racist/bigot/intolerant/hateful/homophobe/etc., you name it. You see, for all their talk about being tolerant and open-minded, it’s really all-or-nothing for progressives.
So, there is nothing to gain and we can only lose ground by “reaching across the aisle” to work with our anti-Southern opponents. Every single time we indulge them by going on the defensive and letting them dominate the tone, it is a setback. That needs to stop if we plan on achieving any kind of significant and lasting social or political victories. Unless I misunderstand Michael, that is the most important point of this whole issue.
For the most part I think you are right, Jared. I don’t really understand where Mark Vogl is coming from. The SCV has denounced slavery repeatedly, but the enemy will never accept it because demonizing opponents is all they can do. They don’t have a chance in a rational debate.
I think the argument from Vogl’s perspective is that we can’t afford to sweep it under the rug either. The purpose of arguing is not usually to convince the die hard South haters to see our perspective, but to win over those who are observing the argument, and if it looks like we are ignoring reality as much as the South haters are, why should they believe us any more than them?
We honor our ancestors, but we don’t worship them or pretend they were perfect and without faults of their own.
However, I don’t really think that we are sweeping it under the rug, and that’s why I can’t understand why Vogl thinks we need to do more in that regard.